People Pleaser Psychology: Dr. Groppel on the High Achiever Trap

People pleaser psychology hides inside high achievement, and Dr. Jack Groppel spent decades inside the world's most elite performance environments before recognizing the pattern in himself. Co-founder of the Johnson and Johnson Human Performance Institute and 11 years of real world experience practicing in these fields, he trained Olympic athletes, coached the Chicago White Sox, and advised Fortune 50 leaders. Then he hit a wall.

Dr. Groppel calls it achievement addiction, a compulsion to succeed at all costs that came from a wound with his father and nearly cost him everything. 

In this episode, he reveals the question he now asks himself three or four times a day, the single shift that separates people who break free from those who stay trapped, and why the fix does not start where most self-help advice points.

This is for high achievers, caregivers, veterans, and anyone who has ever been physically present but emotionally gone, skimming across the surface of their own life while handing their energy to everyone else.

Chapters

• 0:00 People Pleaser Psychology
• 0:30 Meet Dr. Jack Groppel
• 2:27 Defining The Disease To Please
• 3:11 Gender Conditioning And Approval
• 4:03 The Parenting Approval Wound
• 8:40 High Achievement Without Burnout
• 11:11 Always On Culture And Boundaries
• 15:12 Energy Management Beats Multitasking
• 17:49 The Hidden Cost Of Overgiving
• 20:56 Nature As A Nervous System Reset
• 23:56 Purpose Beyond People Pleasing
• 30:01 Nervous System Change And Forgiveness
• 35:40 What Matters Most Right Now

Need help forgiving someone? Forgiveness mentor Katharine Giovani shows you how in these two episodes of New Normal Big Life Podcast. 

Learn How to Forgive With Katharine Giovanni

How to Forgive and Heal in 3 Steps

You can find Dr. Jack Groppel's Book on Amazon.

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Transcript

Approval Vs People Pleasing

Speaker 1 0:00

First of all, we all want approval. There's nothing wrong with wanting approval, but uh the people pleaser seeks approval at all costs. Whatever it takes, did I do okay? Did you like what I did? Do you do you like me? And we start asking for approval of things we have no control over. For example, we could be the incredible person that we are, but still somebody might not like us, but we want their approval. And that's the people pleaser. I just want everybody to be happy and everybody to get along. As human beings, but there's a human flaw that we all have. That's not going to happen.

Meet Dr. Jack Grappel

Speaker 0:30

Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life Podcast. We bring you natural and integrative health information and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside in adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you've learned to create your own new normal and live the biggest life you can dream. I'm your host, Antoinette Berrafato, the Wellness Warrior. Let's get into today's topic. Dr. Jack Grapple, welcome to New Normal Big Life. Why don't you tell us who you are, what you do, and the one big thing you want us to remember from your expertise today?

Speaker 1 1:02

You know, thank you so much, Antoinette, for having me on your show. I've seen so much about your podcast. I'm excited about our conversation today. I grew up in Southern Illinois. On paper, I should have been a farmer, but God had different plans for me. And as fate would have it, I became this high-need achiever that, in fact, I call it achievement addiction because I had this wound with my father that just what made me so driven to succeed at all costs. I call myself affectionately in my book a sophisticated redneck. But, you know, the idea that we're all human and we're all here together. And I think if people walked away, the one thing I would want them to understand is how and when to ask the question, what matters most to me right now?

Speaker 1:46

Wow, that's so beautiful. And, you know, I didn't ask myself that question until I thought I wasn't going to make it another day. And I have a confession for everyone. I am a reformed people pleaser. So when I looked into your work, I said, we have to have this conversation. Because I can't tell you how much stress I removed from my life by changing that behavior and that mindset.

Speaker 1 2:16

Yeah, 100%. That's how I dedicated my memoir to anyone that ever felt they had to please someone or anyone that ever felt they weren't good enough. That's the dedication of my book.

Speaker 2:26

Beautiful.

What People Pleasing Really Is

Speaker 2:27

So for anyone unfamiliar, can you define people pleasing? And how am I show up in the lives of first responders, military folks, the blue-collar family?

Speaker 1 2:37

First of all, we all want approval. There's nothing wrong with wanting approval, but the people pleaser seeks approval at all costs. Whatever it takes, did I do okay? Did you like what I did? Or do you you like me? And we start asking for approval of things we have no control over. For example, we could be the incredible person that we are, but still somebody might not like us, whatever that means. But we want their approval. And that's the people pleaser. I just want everybody to be happy and everybody to get along. And as human beings, there's a human flaw that we all have. That's not going to happen.

Gender, Social Norms, And Conditioning

Speaker 3:11

Do you see people pleasing more often in women? Because as you were speaking, I recognize some patterns in my upbringing from my parents, in that women are kind of socialized, or at least I would say maybe millennials and older were socialized to people please.

Speaker 1 3:33

Yeah. You know, it's a fascinating question because now you get into the nurture versus nurture. So the whole genetic profile versus the environmental profile. And there's no question that the two sexes grow up in different sorts of environments for obvious reasons. There are genetic differences, obviously, but as we grow up, there's different social norms that we fall function to. I see it among men quite a bit, but to your point, young women could be certainly vulnerable to becoming a people pleaser.

Parenting, Pressure, And Owning The Climb

Speaker 4:03

So how can we start to recognize some of those symptoms in ourselves when we're starting to think, am I really doing this or saying yes because I want to, or am I doing something performatively because I feel like I need to to get people to like me?

Speaker 1 4:22

Right. Well, again, now, boy, we're going deep really quickly, aren't we? I love this. There's no preface with you. I love this. We're getting there. You know, it's interesting though, the the idea that why are you doing what you're doing? Because is it to answer your own purpose in life or it's to answer someone else's purpose for you? For example, you know, the best word picture I can give you is parents who get too involved with their children's sports. Like my son is adopted from China, and we adopted him at age four, just under four. And when he started getting into sport in a big way two years later at six, and you might remember my whole career's been in the tennis industry. I'm in three tennis coaches halls of fame. Tennis has been my life. But I said to my six-year-old son, if you want to play tennis, I will hire a tennis teacher and a coach. I am going to be your dad. Because I didn't want him playing tennis and then, gosh, my dad's pretty well known in the sport. I gotta do well. I gotta get my dad's approval. I gotta play well to show dad that I can do this. I didn't want that. So he ends up taking up karate and wins a national championship in karate.

Speaker 5:35

Amazing. That's wonderful.

Speaker 1 5:37

It really has been he has been on an amazing journey. But I think that's the word picture that I want. One of the worst things in the world as a parent is for your child to want to please you. When my son and I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro, he was only 12 at the time. And for me, he had to own his own climb, Antoinette. And by that I mean he had to be responsible for himself. So we talked about altitude sickness and what the symptoms are. And we literally had fun with it. And being former military, I think you'll appreciate this phrasing. I said, there's a big difference in being really, really sick versus, okay, it's time to suck it up, buttercup. You know. So, and we had fun laughing about that. But when we got on the mountain, you know, it was hard. It was really, really hard. And as a parent, you're questioning your own sanity because here you are at extreme altitude with your 12-year-old. And like, dude, what are you thinking? Why would you do this to your son? And why would you do this to yourself? I mean, you've got artificial knees, but the idea that he owned his own climb, and it wasn't about making it to the summit, it was about doing the climb together. So we we totally accepted that if one of us got sick, the other one had to go down. We had to get off the mountain. We did make it to the summit, but we were fully prepared that neither one had to please the other.

Speaker 6:54

Does that make sense? That completely does. And that's such a smart way to do that. I really applaud you for that. I wish all parents would take that tact. You know, my parents were the complete opposite, completely hands-off. I would come home with three first place trophies. My name would be in the paper on Sunday morning for the races that I won, and my parents would act like it didn't even happen. My dad would read it, look at me, and nod.

Speaker 1 7:23

The best compliment I ever got was, how about that when I was younger? Yes. How about that? I mean, it wasn't well done or that's really great, or how about that?

Speaker 7:34

So the greatest generation, our parents' generation, were completely hands-off and and not warm and fuzzy. And then we had the millennial generation's parents, you know, those 1970s parents, they were adults in the 70s, and then later they became the helicopter parents. So what you've done is like a great middle ground, and I love it. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1 7:59

And I think for your listeners, I think it's really important to understand it wasn't yay for me, because what hit me really hard was at extreme altitude, if my son got true altitude sickness, like in the brain or in the lungs, and he felt I cannot let dad down. I mean, that could have killed him.

Speaker 8:21

Exactly.

Speaker 1 8:22

So I was really motivated to make sure that he was okay if he got sick. He was okay saying, Dad, I'm not doing well. I think we need to turn around. Okay, well, let's turn around. And we both had mentally and emotionally prepared for those moments.

Speaker 8:39

Wow, that's beautiful.

High Achievement Without Losing Yourself

Speaker 8:40

In your research and coaching at the highest levels of elite sports and Fortune 500 companies, what's the connection between exceptional achievement and the compulsion to want to seek approval?

Speaker 1 8:53

Well, that's a fine line. Because at the very high levels, that's why I wrote my memoir, because I think there's a lot of people, I think more people than we realize have the same struggles that I did, and you possibly had too growing up that you admitted to earlier. You know, it's a very fine line. I think the ones that do it in a healthy way are able to ask what matters most to me. They're able to answer that question. You live in the United States. Do I take this call with Asia at nine o'clock tonight, or do I tuck my kid in bed and make the call at 10 o'clock? They want to do it at nine o'clock, but can I put it off an hour and put my kid to bed and say prayers and say tell stories with my child? You know, it's those simple questions that we ask ourselves and we give ourselves gut level truth on what do I need to do right now to be the best at what I need to be. You know, for me, I could have certainly said no to getting on a few plane rides in my life, but I didn't. And yeah, I had a lot of success, but at what cost?

Speaker 9:48

You know, in this age of the always connected, always on, we live and die by our devices, not me, but some people. So people expect me not to be responsive. But when you don't have that excuse that I don't have connectivity all the time, people expect you to be on all the time. And even no matter what your job is. I'll give an example in my own life. When I first wanted to get into the magazine business as a freelance writer, everyone said you're a great writer, but you need a social media presence and you need to get published somewhere in uh a magazine before we'll hire you. And, you know, I did not want to have a big social media presence because I didn't want to spend that much time on technology, but really it kept me out of this industry without having a social presence. So, how do we balance the desire for our employer, our customers, our fans on social media, if you're an influencer, to connect with you all the time with being authentically yourself and saying no when you should?

Always On Culture And Boundaries

Speaker 1 11:11

Yeah. You know, this is one of the most important conversations that we could have in this day and age. And if you go back to before 1995, and a lot of your listeners might be too young to understand this, but before 1995, when you left work, whether it was five, six, seven, whenever it was, when you left work, it was very hard to find you. People left a message on a machine, but there was always a backup plan. Leaders had to have contingencies because they may not get a hold of you. See, that's gone. So all that's happened in less than 10 years, by the way. In 1995, the internet happened, and then with the internet, and then the phones happened in what, 2007, 2008. So in the matter of 10 to 13 years, we went from very difficult to find to being accessible 24-7-365. Well, nobody taught us how to set boundaries. No, nobody taught us how to be intentional. And that's the lessons that I would give to your listening audience right now to work 24-7-365 the rest of our lives. We could be available every minute for the rest of our lives if we make that choice. So we have to have very healthy boundaries on what matters most to us right now in certain matters of time. And then we have to be very intentional to whatever it is we say we hold sacred. Are you intentional to holding that sacred? And then that'll help you make the right choices. So that would be my lessons to everyone. Where do you need boundaries? What do you hold sacred? And how do you become intentional toward those to make the right choices?

Speaker 12:48

Well, that's gold right there. And you know, I must have been an early adopter because in 1991 I was on a quick response team and I had a pager and a car phone. Right. It was huge. It's in like a big bag, but I had one.

Speaker 1 13:03

No, I get it. And that was that was the era. But now, I mean, our lives are so dependent on this that you know it's just crazy.

Speaker 13:12

Exactly. So people pleasing can often be dismissed as a confidence problem or a personality quirk, but based on what you've seen in high performance environments, is it a learned strategy that just became a trap later?

Speaker 1 13:26

Yeah, it's learned for sure. And it's interesting. In sport, where I first started understanding this, I stopped asking athletes that I was working with, did you win or lose? I stopped, I stopped dealing with that. I always asked, How'd you do today? And then if they wanted to talk about winning or losing, or they might talk about their effort, or they might talk about they got fatigued, but how did you do today? And they got to learn that didn't mean win or lose necessarily. How did you do how do you feel you how do you feel you competed today? If you're a presenter, how did you do on stage today?

Speaker 13:59

I hope parents are making notes about this language and you can get it in the free guide that'll be available after the show. But this is such great information and such great coaching and parenting advice that any leader really could adopt. I love this.

Speaker 1 14:17

Yeah, uh, thank you. It's how do you feel you did today? And then don't say a word. The Racket Sports Professionals Association, I did a whole series of 30-second to one-minute tips for them. And this one is on being a player's coach in the sport of tennis. Being a player's coach. Well, that means you speak what the player needs to hear. You don't just become verbose and tell them what you know. What does the player need to hear in that moment in time? They might need confidence. I mean, some of the best coaching in the world is under the heat of battle. I've seen great coaches walk out and say, here, have this banana. Because what it does, it interrupts the stress and interrupts the thought. But having the banana got the player to go, What? Yeah, what are you worried about? I mean, it's like the greatest coaches in the world know how to change the emotion. But it's not about espousing, here's what I know, here's what I think you need to be doing right now. That's not a player's coach.

Speaker 15:11

I love that. So

Energy Management Beats Multitasking

Speaker 15:12

at the Human Performance Institute, you built this framework around energy management for elite performers. Tell us about the concept of energy management.

Speaker 1 15:21

Well, human beings are biological organisms. And as such, energy runs the performance light show. So we have physical energy, and that's the probably the best word picture, because energy isn't infinite. We run out of energy. That's why we need to sleep. That's why we need water, we need to eat, we need to exercise, we need to be active because we're wired that way physically. But but it's also physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. So mentally, we run out of mental energy. If you just go, go, go, like multitasking, for example. Multitasking is the antithesis of high performance. The human brain, if you have to focus, can only really focus on one thing at a time. And it's it's ironic how many people argue with that because they think they can do more than one. They can't. Now, and now, if it's not important, you can multitask away. You know, you can have the oven on and go take the laundry out of the dryer. I mean, nobody's dying in that moment. You could read the newspaper and be cooking something while the oven's on. Nothing's gonna happen. But try to be preparing something with a very specific recipe and then get interrupted by a phone call by a relative. Now you've got a problem. You'll make a mistake on one of them because we're not wired that way. So that's the mental. Emotionally, we run out of emotional energy. So there's high positive, low positive, high negative, and low negative energy. And you want to try to be in high positive, but you can't just stay there. That's ricochet rabbit. That's bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to be around you either. Trust me, you know. So it's it's the idea of oscillating between energy levels, but knowing how to access high positive energy. And then spiritually, we run out of spiritual energy. The idea of being so driven on purpose. I mean, some of the most stressed-out people I've ever worked with in my life are pastors of churches. And these are deeply spiritual people. But think about a pastor. Who do they see when they've got problems? I mean, a psychologist, they hold well, yeah. But where? Think about this. Right. See, they don't want again, the people pleasing comes in now, Antoinette. They don't want to go, they don't want to be seen in the waiting room of a psychologist's office if they're the senior pastor at their church. Exactly. So, by the way, everybody needs somebody. I'm the big believer in counseling and therapy. Anyone that ever tells me I don't need somebody, yes, you do. People need people. We do need people. You know, I'm a big believer in that hugely. So the idea that energy is finite, and we have to recapture energy to refill the system physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

The Hidden Cost Of Overgiving

Speaker 17:49

So, how does chronic people pleasing drain a person's energy physically and emotionally? And is there a measurable physiological cost to the body?

Speaker 1 17:58

Well, what happens, the chronic people pleaser, you're like that. Remember when we were kids, we try to find the flattest rock and try to skip it across the pond or the lake? Yes. Well, that's what we become in our lives. We become like that rock. We just skim across the surface of life, just go, go, go, go, go, and we can't go deep. We can't. We just skim across the surface. And the idea that, by the way, when the rock does go deep, how does it go deep? It has it slows down. Right. If it slows down, it goes deep. Same with us. If we come back to what we said earlier, if we set those boundaries, we become intentional, and we go deep. We had a very high, high-level executive one time, a man, and he always came home around seven o'clock at night. And when he came home intentionally to have dinner with his family at seven o'clock every night, but he was on his phone all the time at dinner. So he thought being physically present was giving them energy. Well, one night, as fate would have it, he got held up at the office. So he gets home a little before nine o'clock. He called his wife on the way home. This is a true story, by the way. Calls her and says, Look, you've been so great with the two boys, ages nine and twelve. Why don't you take the evening off? When I get in, I'll put the boys to bed. Let me connect with the boys. She said, Great, go for it. So he comes in, he kisses her on the cheek, and he goes upstairs. Boys put their pajamas on, he reads with them and they wrestle and said their prayers, and he says, You guys sleep well. And the little one, the nine-year-old says, Daddy, can you come home at nine o'clock every night? We call that the nine o'clock daddy story. Now, what just happened? Because here's a man who intentionally was home at seven. Physically, he was there, he was present, but he didn't give them any energy emotionally and mentally and even spiritually. But then when he came home at night and he was intentionally being with the boys, they said, Dad, if you can do this every night, we'll take it. So if it'll help you to work longer, go ahead because we'll take this. So you have to be very, very intentional about recovery. You have to schedule it and you have to figure out what do I need to do. And at all costs, you've got to put yourself in that situation. It might be read a book, it might be go for a walk. And that's the beauty of this, by the way. So you might need to schedule physical, emotional, and spiritual recovery, but maybe physically you go for exercise. You go, you go for a walk. So physically, you're doing something that is a little bit stressful, but it gives you mental and emotional recovery because you're no longer in that situation where you're caring for someone. So you've forced yourself to go for a walk and you're not able to care for someone. So you've been in very intentional to do that. So you have to getting out of your comfort zone is figuring out what do you need to do that will allow your body and mind to recover and to recapture energy. And usually you find out that all those problems you were worried about, they're still there when you come back. Just because you were on a 30-minute walk, they didn't go away. They're

Nature As A Nervous System Reset

Speaker 1 20:56

fine.

Speaker 20:56

So my husband and I have a nonprofit called the American Adventure Sports Club, and it provides no-cost outdoor adventures and training and camp to adults, children, folks with disabilities, seniors. And one of the things we notice when we take adults to camp is for the first few hours, they are pacing around jittery. They don't know what to do with themselves. They're reaching in their pockets, knowing there is no cell service in the mountains or the woods or wherever we are. And they really just have a very difficult time calming down. And then we'll do some nervous system reset and we'll get them under the trees, and they'll start breathing in the fight insides released by the trees, like lemonine, and they'll notice that they're feeling calmer. They'll stop checking their phones, and you can physically see in their bodies their shoulders drop, their face is calm when their nervous system resets. That's why I love encouraging people. People to get outside and adventure. So at this point, before we continue with the next topic in this episode, I want to introduce you to the Adventure Sports Lifestyle with a micro story about an adventure that I've had. The Adventure Sports Lifestyle and my deep connection to nature is essential to my good health. So here's the story. I went for a paddle out on a beautiful lake in the Midwestern woods. And it was a little bit of a road trip for me and my family. And it was such a beautiful day. But what I loved most, not catching my first largemouth bass. I'd been targeting this species for about three years, and I caught my first three bass and one first fish of the day. That's a little competition I do with my family. First fish, most species, biggest fish. It's a lot of fun. But what I enjoyed most was being physically strong enough, meaning my cardiovascular system, my muscle strength was strong enough to tolerate paddling across the entire river from one end to the other, seven miles, at the same pace as my husband, who's almost 20 years younger than me, and a man. And he's in great physical condition. And I look so calm and I was at such a relaxed pace as I'm paddling across the water. And what I realized that day is if I had to get across that lake in an emergency situation, I could have done it even faster. I had the mental, physical, spiritual, emotional strength to get the job done despite adverse conditions like a 25 mile an hour wind. I did that. I hope it inspires you to get outside an adventure alone with friends or the people you love most. Now back to the conversation.

Finding Purpose Beyond Approval

Speaker 23:56

So there's a psychological cost to being a people pleaser that I think most people don't think about, like I said in my admission of being a reform people pleaser, that sort of destroys who you are. How do you reconnect or even find out who you really are when you've made the decision to stop people pleasing?

Speaker 1 24:19

Well, I think you as an individual have to understand, again, I brought this question up before, but what matters most to me in general? What matters most to me? You know, and I think we as humans, we avoid that question because we it's almost like it's not good enough. It's my answer to the question isn't good enough. And I'll never forget one time I was speaking, this is quite some time ago, but I was in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I was speaking for a very large corporation, and we were at a break, and I just finished talking about purpose and the role that purpose has in someone's life. And this young man comes up to me at the break and went like this, Dr. Jack, I'm just too young to have a sense of purpose. And I went, Really? And I tried to get him to tell me more. I said, Well, tell me what matters to you right now. And he says, I don't know. He said, I'm a young leader. I love seeing my people do well. I love helping people excel in their own lives. And then I said, Well, what an amazing purpose right now for you. And then I said to him, if you got married later on, do you think your purpose would change? Oh, probably. What about if you had children? Probably. What about later in your life when you had grandchildren? Oh, probably. I mean, and and he started understanding that this sense of purpose can change throughout our lives. So the idea that something matters to you right now is key to understanding who you are. It's what matters to me right now. I struggled with that because for me, I just wanted to get dad's approval, my father's approval. And I wasn't recruited to play tennis for a large university, but I was determined that I was going to play in the Big Ten. And my dad thought I was absolutely crazy. So his whole thinking was that if he had to pay for college, that I had to study what our family were. We were all farmers, so I had to study agriculture. So I go to the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, majored in agriculture, and made the tennis team and played. So I played in the Big Ten, but I got a degree in wildlife biology. I couldn't find a job. So what did I do? I go back to grad school. I start grad school in population genetics. I'm thinking that I'm going to study migratory habits of wildlife. So the joke in my family is that if I hadn't found my life, I'd be counting wolves in Wyoming. But that wouldn't be a bad job, you know, but not necessarily. So they could procreate more rapidly. Because you could study then generations. That's what population genetics was. So as I lovingly like to say, that my job was to create a romantic environment for beetles to have sex. So here I am at 22. I'm crying myself to sleep every night. My sister, bless her heart to this day, she's 10 years older than I am. She said, Jack, why don't you go talk to the people in physical education? You've been an athlete your whole life. My first thought was, again, people please her. I said, Dad'll kill me. Because he didn't think that was a viable field. She said, You don't know what you don't know. Go talk to them. So they graciously accepted an appointment, the department head. And my grades were good. And he said, All right, why don't we admit you to the Masters of Science program? You're going to have to take human cadaver anatomy, exercise physiology, and kinesiology, your first semester, three hardest courses. And I said, This is really wonderful, and I'm so grateful. And he said, Is this all gonna work? And I said, Yeah, I just don't know how I'm gonna pay for it because I know my dad's gonna cut me off the moment I tell him. And he said, Well, you played tennis here at Illinois, didn't you? And I said, I did. He says, I need somebody to teach my activity classes in tennis. I'm gonna waive your tuition and fees and I'll pay you a small stipend to teach tennis for me. Will that work? Wow. Yeah. I said, Thank you, Jesus. And I walked out of the room, and uh and then the rest is history. I fell in love with the field. I got straight A's, I went to Florida State for my PhD, and I had made a decision. Mentoring was huge in my life. So my kinesiology professor at the end of that very first semester said 17 words to me. He knew I was a tennis player. And by the way, I just received the Distinguished Alumni Award at the University of Illinois last fall. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, biggest honor of my life. And he he said 17 words. He said, if you apply yourself, you could become a pioneering leader in the science of tennis performance.

Speaker 28:54

Wow.

Speaker 1 28:54

So I created my own career, my work in the science of tennis. I went to 52 countries. I was the founding chairman of the Sports Science Committee for the United States Tennis Association. But all that because I had to step away from what dad wanted me to do and do what I wanted to do for me. I think I hit rock bottom emotionally. I think that's what happened. And you might even argue spiritually, I hit rock bottom because when the department head at fiscal education said that I was going to be basically self-sufficient, that he was going to waive my tuition and fees, and I was going to be paid a small stipend. That was the coup d'etat to tell dad, I'm good. I'm good. Because he did. Cut me off that night. He says, You know, I'm not paying for this. I said, You don't have to, Dad. And then he didn't understand that at all. My dad never understood my career, but later in my career, I was paid ridiculous amounts of money doing professional speaking. And my father literally said, Well, I wouldn't pay that. And we did reconcile. I don't want your listeners to say dad and I were estranged. The last 10 years of his life, we reconciled, and it was still difficult, but we much, much better.

Speaker 29:57

That's good. I'm so glad you had that. That's great.

Nervous System Change And Forgiveness

Speaker 30:01

So, what does breaking free from the need for approval require? Is it primarily a mindset shift? Is it behavioral change? Does it start somewhere deeper in your nervous system?

Speaker 1 30:12

Well, you're exactly right that it has to happen at the nervous system level, but it has to start cognitively at first. Cognitively, you have to make the change first. It's like making a change in technique and sport. You've got all these habits, these bad habits you have to break. As a people pleaser, you've got all these bad habits. And by the way, you might have them with more than one person. They might be specific to different people. It might just not be a general people pleaser. You might want to please your father. Then there might be a business partner. There might be a former spouse that maybe you got divorced, but yet you're going, wow, you know, I'm the parent of your children. I mean, there's all kinds of levels that this can go to. And whatever it is, it has to start cognitively. That's why I believe in therapy and counseling. Because the cognitive side, you have to be intentional before you can start breaking non-conscious habits. That's how you get it to the nervous system level.

Speaker 31:06

Is there a component of forgiveness that someone might need to go through, like forgiving the people, events, the place, the point in time of where you felt like you were put in this box that you had to stay in so that you can please other people? And then after you've broken free, I know in my own life, I felt some resentment. I felt a lot of resentment from the control that my mother, for example, tried to have on me. She really wanted me to be a lady. And they lovingly said, both parents, we're gonna send you to debutant school to train the wild out of you. Because you my parents were very elegant people, always dressed impeccably, great manners, those kinds of things. I think I'm just a natural people pleaser, also, because I really like people. And I also loved nature. I loved being outdoors and our backyard, barefoot. I grew our victory garden. My mother started a victory garden when my dad was away at four, and then they kept up the tradition because they came from farming families like you.

Speaker 1 32:17

Yeah.

Speaker 32:18

But my mother never had a kind word for me. And even though she sent me to debutante school and I did very well, and I became a lady in air quotes, I never was lady enough for her. Right. Oddly enough, today, people tell me, wow, for an adventure sportswoman, you're such a lady.

Speaker 1 32:38

Isn't that true?

Speaker 32:39

But I could never get her to to view me as a real lady, as she would say. So I had to do a lot of forgiveness work around that.

Speaker 1 32:50

Yeah, you do. There's a lot of sometimes reparations that have to be made with people that maybe you've offended, maybe people that you've had to work through problems. I mean, and this is like an Alcoholics Anonymous, where you've got to make amends with people or things or talk things through. My father and I at the end, I never heard the words I love you from him until I was 46. But when I got him to say them first, then he would say it all the time. The last 10 years of his life, he would say it all the time. He'd say, I love you. And I'd say, I love you too, Dad. You know, and he would often bring up, I did the best job I could. He would try to talk about that. And I said, I know. So there was forgiveness. It was still strained because he only knew one way of life. My father actually said something that I think I want to share with your listeners. My father said, You know, son, I am who I am, and I can't change. And that is so wrong. Because if it matters to you, you can change at any stage in your life. Absolutely. That's why here I am at this stage in my life that I'm still a learner. I want to learn. I want to get better. As I said earlier, my son's adopted. I was an older father, he's in his early 20s now, and I want to still be a great dad to him. Well, I've got to understand my generation and his generation, there's quite a bit of difference. So I have to understand social media. I want to be able to talk to him about the music that he likes. I don't have to like the music he likes, but I have to be able to talk to him about it and understand what are his motivations. I don't want to just step away and go, well, these kids these days. I don't want to do that. I don't want to be on the sideline. And that's my suggestion for all of your listeners. Don't be on the sideline. Be in the game. Be in the game. And if you have to forgive someone, step up. Take that step. If you need to make amends, step up. Do that. Or at least do your best to do it. You know, it might be difficult, but take that step.

Speaker 34:38

Sometimes we need to forgive others. Sometimes we need to forgive ourselves.

Speaker 1 34:42

100%.

Speaker 34:42

And people people can get hung up on not wanting for to forgive someone who really hurt them deeply, a betrayal or abuse, or any of those kinds of things. But the thing to remember is you're not forgiving that person and letting them off the hook and doing it for them. 100%.

Speaker 1 35:04

And you can forgive someone, you can still love them, but at arm's length. Just because you're forgiving them, that doesn't mean that they're part of your life again. You're forgiving them. You don't wish harm. You love them as God admonishes us to do, but you keep them at arm's length.

Speaker 35:21

If you need any help with forgiveness, forgiveness mentor Catherine Giovanni has done two episodes with us walking you through the process of forgiveness, step by step, how to do it. So be sure to catch those episodes and we'll drop links in the show description. That's beautiful.

What Matters Most Right Now

Speaker 1 35:40

So there's a couple of steps, but it all comes down to purpose at the end of the day. Purpose runs the show. Human beings are mission-specific as a species. All of us search meaning. So the meaning that you search needs to be for you, not for someone else. See, if you're trying to please someone else, your purpose is toward them, when in fact it's not self-motivated purpose. So I want people to take a sheet of paper and pretend that there's no limitations on your life whatsoever. None. There's no money issues, there's no children involved, there's no spouse involved, there's no limitations. What are 10 things that you want to do in your life? So no limitations whatsoever. What would you like to do? And then once you've got your list done, what's on there? What trends are showing? And then say, okay, which of these really matters to me? Is there something here that really feeds my soul? That's the depth that you want to go to. Not just what, but what feeds me? What feeds my soul? We all know the funny expression where you're so motivated about life. You wake up and you go, good morning. We're not very motivated. We go, good God, it's morning. What gets you out of bed in the morning that says, Let's go, world. It's me. You know, I love that. I love that attitude. A lot of people laugh at me because is this real? It is absolutely real. This is who I am. I struggle. Sure, I do. I'm human. We all struggle. But do I allow myself to wallow? No. If you're struggling, figure out what you need to do. Do you need counseling? Do you need to be active? Do you need to be around some friends? Do you need to go on a trip? Do you need a vacation? What do you need? What do you need to feed your soul?

Speaker 37:21

When I was at rock bottom and wanting to make a change and stop people pleasing, it was what characteristics would I want and someone I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with?

Speaker 1 37:35

Correct.

Speaker 37:35

What did I need to be happy? And I wrote all of that out. I wish I had handwritten it out because handwritten goals are the goals you're more likely to achieve. That's a statistic. Well, it's true. A statistical fact, right? But, you know, because I'm an MBA, I took out a spreadsheet. But that's great. But I wish I had handwritten those goals. I did achieve 100% of them. And here's how easily it happened. Remember, the day before this, I was using a walker, a service dog, a full-time caregiver, and still using one at that time. But I said, I'm going to create my new normal and it's going to be a big life. And then by four years later, I was living the exact life. I mean, to the letter that I wanted. And it's only gotten better and better. And I even met my husband because I found my passion, purpose, and other people to do the things I love with. And he was one of 50 other people. We met, became friends, and now we're married, living in a cabin in the woods happily ever after. And I'm doing the kind of work that I wanted to do. And I completely changed my life. So I want to say that for anyone listening, your dreams, your goals, your vision for your life, and who you could become, everything you need already lives inside you.

Speaker 1 39:05

That's so beautiful because that at the end of the day, as you and I have discussed, my memoir came out this year. It's called Mountains Within. And the idea that there are mountains within all of us. And what mine is, is how I decided to own Mount Kilimanjaro to tell the whole story, the good and the bad. So it's called A Life of Achievement, A Quest for Meaning in the Mountain That Changed Everything. So it's all these really cool things that I did, but at what cost? And that's to your point, how we can literally affect change in our life to be better.

Speaker 39:37

Right. I love it. And tell us where we can find your book, Jack.

Speaker 1 39:41

Mountains Within, anywhere the books are sold, Amazon is where a lot of people are getting it right now. And if for you to like audiobooks, I narrated the audiobook as well. So a lot of people like that. Yeah.

Speaker 39:51

Yeah. I will put a link in the show description to make it easier for anyone to find because Wellness Warriors, in all honesty, I think reading Jack's book will help you to see truly the importance of why you need to make this change in your life, how it's impacting you, and how you can move through that change process. What more do you want to live, listeners with, Jack?

Speaker 1 40:17

Well, the vulnerabilities that I wrote within the book, I could have never written when I was working in the corporate world. Because I do share a lot of vulnerabilities that I've had friends say, Why are you writing this book? Because you could literally go to your grave and nobody would know this stuff. I said, Yeah, but I don't think I'd help anybody. I think this can help people because I at the end I talk about how to have hope and how to have mentors and how to use mentors. Or if you're older or you've got more experience to be a mentor, to feed into other people or have other people feed into you. So what I would like to leave people with is to understand what we've talked about around purpose today and what it means to calibrate your life by asking the question, what matters most right now? And a lot of people say, well, how often should I ask myself that question? You might need to ask that like three or four times a day because we make decisions all day long about do I do this or do I do that? And it has to do between family and friends and our life and our health, our exercise, and our work. And you've got to calibrate it a lot at first to understand what really matters most that I make this decision right now. So it's making the decisions in your life that will help you live the life you want to live. On LinkedIn is where I am the most active. I'm also on Instagram. So on LinkedIn it's my name, Jack Grappel, and on Instagram it's Jack Grappel1. And that's probably where I'm most active. I've got a lot of the tips that I do in coaching and things on both.

Speaker 41:44

We'll be sure to include those links. Thank you. Jack, this has been so enlightening, and you're such a treasure. Thank you so much for blessing us with this great information today.

Speaker 1 41:55

Such a privilege to be with you. Thank you so much for all you do as well.

Speaker 41:58

Thank you.

Speaker 1 41:59

The information in this podcast is not medical advice and should not be treated as such. Always consult your physician or healthcare professional before pursuing any health related procedure or activity.