Digital Minimalism: Stop Letting Tech Ruin Your Life

Your phone didn’t “just get sticky,” it was engineered that way. Strategist and accountability coach Kelsey Green joins us to map a saner path through the attention economy, showing how digital minimalism can boost focus, deepen relationships, and transform sleep without ditching every tool you love. We unpack how intermittent rewards in social apps hijack dopamine, why boredom is actually a creative engine, and how a few strict boundaries turn scattered days into steady momentum.

Kelsey shares pragmatic steps that work in real life.

Chapters

• 0:00 Dopamine Loops And Phone Design
• 4:40 What Digital Minimalism Really Means
• 8:08 The Dopamine Cost Of Scrolling
• 10:20 Overwhelm, Notifications, And Calm
• 12:45 Boundaries That Protect Focus
• 20:33 Choosing Tech Intentionally, Not Totally
• 29:34 Work, Creativity, And Boredom Tolerance
• 33:05 Relearning Face‑To‑Face Social Skills
• 37:19 From Parasocial To Real Relationships
• 58:46 Compassion, No Shame, Long‑Game Habits

If you’ve felt overwhelmed by pings, stuck in scrolls, or starved for presence, this conversation hands you a blueprint. Try one boundary this week, take the screen‑free challenge, and notice what returns first; clarity, calm, or connection. If this resonates, follow and subscribe, share with a friend who needs a reset, and leave a review so more people can reclaim their attention.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Dopamine Loops And Phone Design
• 0:37 Free Ebook And Community Invitation
• 2:11 Meet Kelsey And Today’s Big Idea
• 4:40 What Digital Minimalism Really Means
• 8:08 The Dopamine Cost Of Scrolling
• 10:20 Overwhelm, Notifications, And Calm
• 12:45 Boundaries That Protect Focus
• 17:02 Screen‑Free Challenges That Reveal Habits
• 20:33 Choosing Tech Intentionally, Not Totally
• 24:18 Disasters, Preparedness, And Offline Skills
• 26:39 Nature Interlude And Personal Milestone
• 29:34 Work, Creativity, And Boredom Tolerance
• 33:05 Relearning Face‑To‑Face Social Skills
• 37:19 From Parasocial To Real Relationships
• 41:12 Benefits Recap And Practical Steps
• 45:51 Sleep Gains From Tech Curfews
• 51:10 Opting Out Of TV Culture Pressure
• 55:03 Social Skills, Etiquette, And Attention
• 58:46 Compassion, No Shame, Long‑Game Habits

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Through the apps, the way that they are created to uh function almost like a slot machine, the mechanism, right, of the the refresh and the you know all the stuff that happens within these apps, uh, it is really giving us these little dopamine hits. And that of course reinforces itself. So when we have a moment where we might feel, uh-oh, like boredom, we reach for the phone, you know, waiting in line at the grocery store, whatever it is. And this then uh reinforces that within our brains that it becomes harder and harder to be without our phones.

SPEAKER_01: 0:37

Hey wellness warriors, Antoinette Lee here, host of New Normal Big Life. The moment you've been waiting for is live. New Normal Big Life 2025 Grit Fueled Wellness Revolution, the official companion ebook to our biggest, boldest season yet is out now and it's 100% free. This isn't some fluffy recap, it's a battle plan. Every game-changing guest quote, every pro tip and wellness warrior takeaway, plus brand new science and step-by-step action plans that turn what you heard on the podcast into real results in your body, mind, and life. Three powerhouse chapters, 41 episodes distilled, zero medical gatekeeping, all actionable grit. Claim your free copy right now in less than 20 seconds. Subscribe at nnbl.blog. When you grab the ebook, you also unlock weekly expert drops straight to your inbox in 2026. First access to new episodes, exclusive brand new behind-the-scenes warrior updates from me. 2025 proved you're done being dismissed. 2026 is your year to rise stronger, clearer, and unstoppable. Download your free copy now at nnbl.blog. If you've already subscribed, your copy is on the way to your inbox. Let's make 2026 the year medicine catches up to you. See you inside the book and on the next episode. Hi friends, welcome to the New Normal Big Life Podcast. We're bringing you natural and integrative health information and stories about nature that we hope will inspire you to get outside an adventure, along with a step-by-step plan to help you practice what you've learned, create your own new normal, and live the biggest life you can dream. I'm your host, Antoinette Lee, the Wellness Warrior. Let's get into today's topic.

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Hi, Kelsey. Welcome to New Normal Big Life. Hey Antoine, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for hosting me.

SPEAKER_01: 2:42

I'm so excited to have you. Why don't you tell us what you do, your focus is, and what's the one big idea you want to leave us with today?

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Absolutely. Thank you. Well, my name is Kelsey Green, and I use the handle Kelsey L Green in the online space. And I do a couple different things. I have a strategic communications consulting practice, and I also work with people, primarily women, in the accountability space, which I know that accountability can be a bad word for some people, but really what it means is creating a container for women to come together and produce something like finishing their book or launching their businesses with community, with support. And one of the things I know we'll be talking about today is utilizing the principles of digital minimalism to leverage the digital tools, you know, for our businesses, for our lives, but then to really make sure that we are able to continue to focus and bring our work into the world without all this noise and all these distractions. So I suppose one of the takeaways for today's conversation will be that there are so many amazing benefits and tools out there, and we want to make sure that we are setting boundaries with our digital use. And I would suggest fairly strict boundaries and really leveraging and optimizing the tools that we choose to use, but making sure that those are supporting our core values and not subverting them to make sure that for you know this moment and far into the future, we are able to live our best lives.

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

Oh, I love that so much. So, what does digital minimalism mean to you? And how is that different from just completely going offline or quitting well, going offline temporarily or quitting tech altogether?

SPEAKER_00: 4:56

Thank you for this very astute question. And I I love coming out of the gate with this because it's pretty critical to understanding the ethos of what we're talking about here. And I'll just point out a great resource to kick us off, and that is Cal Newport's digital minimalism. And I think this can be a really scary term for some people because sometimes when we think about minimalists, you know, in a physical way, we hear about these people that only have five t-shirts and one spoon, right? And they they just don't want to own anything unless they absolutely have to. And what I really appreciate about Cal Newport's thinking and writing and his philosophies is that he's a tech guy. He's a computer scientist, right? And he is saying, you know, some of these tools are could be amazing for your life, and that is wonderful. But make sure that we are really evaluating how these tools are showing up for us, how we are utilizing those tools, and make sure that they are beneficial, that the benefit of these tools is outweighing the cost. And I don't think it's going to be surprising to anyone that's listening here to, you know, to hear the idea that the cost can actually be quite high in our lives, right? For our relationships, for our mental health, for our ability to focus, for our creativity, the cost of just letting go completely and you know, giving over control of your brain and your attention to these apps can be so detrimental. So that's kind of the first part. The second part to answer your question of how does this differ from just doing a little detox or eschewing them all together and saying, like, you know, throwing your phone in the river and spashing your computer. I mean, it's just probably not realistic anymore, right? I don't think we can fly on a plane without a digital boarding pass anymore. And I know there's a lot of payments happening through your smartwatch or whatever. The first reality is that we probably can't get away from it even if we wanted to. You know, we can just process our feelings around that. But I would say that yeah, I fully believe in detoxing once in a while. Partially, of course, to try to reclaim a bit of your attention and remember what your hobbies are, remember what it feels like to not have a phone close by when you get bored. But, you know, so I do think that's important. But I also believe that this works best in combination with an examination of the way you want to live your life. And I think that's what we'll talk more about.

SPEAKER_01: 7:54

Oh, I love that so much. And you know, I've read that many of the tech CEOs don't allow their children to use social media and a lot of apps that we use in our lives, they don't allow it in their own homes. And I think that speaks volume. So let's talk about the dopamine costs of constant scrolling and notifications. I know in my own life, I like to put my phone down at 3 p.m. every day and go for a hike and then do yoga and Pilates. And I have this whole kind of wind down from technology routine. Will you explain how the effects of our attention, creativity, and mental health are impacted by this dopamine cost that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_00: 8:38

First, kudos to you. 3 p.m. is impressive to start that process, but I love that because what I imagine it's doing is is is really setting you up. So by the time that you actually go to bed, you haven't just stopped looking at screens. You've been in that routine. So lovely, well done. Basically, again, this, you know, I think people uh have both probably heard the research around this by now, but also they feel it within themselves. I I personally believe and I I've seen research to support this, that it it functions just like addiction in our brains, right? So when we're foraging for what I call this this fake dopamine, or we can consider it as dopamine that we did not earn through the apps, the way that they are created to function almost like a slot machine, the mechanism, right, of the the refresh and the you know, all the stuff that happens within these apps. It it is really giving us these little dopamine hits. And that, of course, reinforces itself. So when we have a moment where we might feel, uh-oh, like boredom, we reach for the phone, you know, waiting in line at the grocery store, whatever it is. And this then reinforces that within our brains that it becomes harder and harder to be without our phones, to have this constant influx of information.

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

I personally feel very overwhelmed by all of the notifications and scrolling. And a lot of people in my X space talk about that. They just want to not have notifications turned on. So, how does stepping back from the digital noise create more focus and calm in your daily life?

SPEAKER_00: 10:28

Yeah. Well, I'll speak to my personal experience in this realm. So I'd say about a year and a half ago, I started, to be honest, it is a little bit of an anecdotal example because I was in a relationship where we both had businesses and this person just could not be off their phone. Always, there was always sound happening, you know. And as I started along my little journey of digital minimalism, which I didn't call it at the time for sure, right? And I am still on the journey for sure, certainly, we really started to diverge because we'd be having conversations. You know, his phone is face up and it's lighting up and it's making noise. And we're talking about the future state of our relationship. And it started to become a real issue, you know, and I realized I don't want to live like this within my close relationships, you know, with people I'm just meeting. I don't, I don't want to be on my phone at the cafe or the grocery store. I want to be open to these different experiences, you know. And one of the things that I talk a lot about these days, obviously digital minimalism, but how it's impacting our in-person relationships and community. And I feel so strongly, and we have seen a ton of data show that with the increase of use of the smartphone, amount of time spent in the apps scrolling, we see decrease in mental health. We see our kind of the fabric of our society crumbling a little bit. And I I know that can sound a little grim and dire, but I truly believe that this is having a super detrimental effect on us as a species and our our relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

Yeah, happiness researcher. Well, he's more than a happiness researcher, he's a mental health researcher. Dr. Nicholas Carderas says we're not meant to be screen staring, meaning devoid people. We're meant to be outside, face-to-face with one another, having connection, having real connection, which we don't get online. So when we think about lifestyle changes, what we can do to improve our personal relationships and our relationships in the larger community, what lifestyle changes do you recommend to minimize what some call brain drain? And that's something that I feel by the end of the day, mostly because I'm a traumatic brain injury survivor. But the three o'clock sort of uh cutoff that I've implemented in my life is a self-protection mechanism so that my brain doesn't become so exhausted that I don't have capacity for my personal life afterward.

SPEAKER_00: 13:22

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for telling me about that. And it's interesting because I bet you can feel it so much more acutely than some other people, perhaps. I what's interesting is I do think people, when they start putting the boundaries in place, can't they start to become more sensitive to it. But I'll just talk, yeah, I'll just speak to some of the ways we can implement this. You know, it's not that complicated, really. It's it's such it's so easy. It's like a lot of things in life. It's really not gonna be mind-blowing, revolutionary type stuff here. It's just the basics. But I will just echo what you said about focus. And in my own life, there's that relationship component of the way I want to interact and be in an embodied space with people and fully present. And then there's the focus and the creativity. And what I have seen is the more boundaries I put in place on my digital use, the more I'm able to be present with my own body, my own thoughts, myself, others, and also the more I can get done. And I'm not a proponent of doing more in general, hustle culture, being more productive. I'm a but I am a proponent of getting the work done and then getting off of screens and enjoying the rest of our lives, right? So if we can do eight hours of work in four hours, five hours, great, do that, right? I don't want to spend more time on screens, but I want to I want to be productive. And I feel like this is one of the things that's that's really starting to make us unable to complete some of these tasks. So going back to what to do, here's what I do. My this is what I strive for. And it's again, I'm on the journey. So 7 p.m. to 7 a.m., no phone. My phone goes in the closet. It's on a breakthrough mode where it's in do not disturb, except for if there's an emergency with my mom, she can call through. So some kind of emergency the client, you know. I just don't, I don't need to have it on. There's no reason. So my mom can call through, and otherwise it's away. I do some deep work. I get up early, so I do some deep work from maybe 5:30 or 6 a.m. So I can be on my computer at that time until 7. But the goal is to do the work, do the writing, do the deep work. You know, we want to leverage that early morning brain first thing in the morning to get some stuff done, not just be messing around in our email or organizing files or whatever. Like really leverage, you know, all the dopamine and serotonin that has built back up over the night. And then basically I have no sound notifications on, no ringer on ever, unless, again, it's an emergency, or let's say I'm running an event, okay, you know. So let's say 95% of the time. And what's interesting is that people say, Oh, I could never do that. You know, I have all these calls that come in. And so if it's your kids or whatever, set that breakthrough call. But you also just create an expectation that you're not going to be immediately available at all times of the day. If you are someone who has clients and or a boss and you do need, you do need to actually be available, obviously set that time for yourself. But then when it's done, get back off, right? Do the do not disturb or just turn the sound off or whatever. And then I also I'm going for once a month try to do 24 hours screen free. And I run free challenges. They're called screen free Sunday challenges. Again, and you have one coming up, right? That's right. Yeah. February 1st, there is a screen-free challenge day. And oh my gosh. And this has been really interesting to run this challenge. Some people, if they're if they already have good boundaries and they've already thought through this a little bit, it's just not that big of a deal for others who maybe are on multiple screens at a time and never give themselves that space offline. Woo! It is tough.

SPEAKER_01: 17:36

You know, I have good boundaries and I am gonna take the challenge anyway. I have an out because I live in a cabin in the woods, and there are only certain rooms in the house where I can even get cell service. And so people kind of know that, well, they might not be able to reach me because I'm outside adventuring, or I'm in a place in the cabin where I don't get service. But I still even I feel overwhelmed by the amount of time, the kind of work that I do as a writer and speaker and a content creator have to spend on screen time. So I'm up for the challenge. I'm all in.

SPEAKER_00: 18:19

Oh, I love that. Great. Yeah, it's it's been really interesting because people, people say like they they think they won't have any struggles, but then they forget, oh, they've been paying for something with their Apple Watch, or oh, they don't know how to get somewhere. You know, they need to use the maps or whatever. And these are all fine reasons. It's interesting to examine is that the way that you want to live your life, not being able to function in the world without your screens or piece of tech, right? And and so it helps people really examine their kind of overall way that they're showing up in their relationship with tech. The other funny thing that's been happening is people say, Well, I don't think I have a problem with technology. I'm not addicted to it. And this screen free day will really help show you if you are or not, right? Because Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because people might not realize how often they reach for their phone or when they reach for it, you know, in these moments of potential boredom and to distract themselves. They might they just might not realize it. So it's a really interesting challenge in that way to examine how compulsive of a behavior it is for you.

SPEAKER_01: 19:39

You know, manufacturers of AI wearables and other devices want us to continue using these devices for everything we do, from managing where we have to be when to paying for things and connecting with friends and family. But how can we in this always connected world as humans create that mental boundary between what the world is telling me I should be doing in the 21st century when it comes to using technology versus what my own body might be saying that I'm ignoring? How do we balance that and how do we begin to write out what those boundaries might be and then implement them in our lives?

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

I love this question. And I love that this question speaks to the personal nature of these decisions. And it kind of goes back to also one of the things that we first talked about, which was, you know, deciding which kind of tech and do we need to throw it all out and et cetera. And just give you one example. I I there are some apps that I I love and I don't mind that my data is being tracked in this way. Like I'm not fully against it. So my example is the Whoopstrap. I'm not an affiliate for this company, but I just I really do appreciate it. There's it's a fitness tracker, right? But there's no screen on it, which is a little awkward actually, because you know, sometimes people ask me the time, like, I don't know. There's no there's no face on this. I just this little band, you know. And then there's a cool app though, associated. And for me, who, you know, I'm very focused on health and wellness for myself as I age, you know, my various activities. I'm all about it. I'm also all about getting outside and like not tracking what what I'm doing, you know, but but day to day I do spend a good amount of energy and time in that space. And so this is fine for me. Like I'm okay with that, right? The the thing is though, my trainer gave me a very cool app for weightlifting. It is an it's awesome. It's an awesome app. And I hated, hated being on the phone in the gym. I'm just seeing people lolling around in the machines, scrolling. And I'm sure some of them are logging their reps and their weight, but I know a lot of them aren't. And I just didn't want to be part of that club. So I got myself an analog book, notebook, and I'm just writing the reps and the wait. And is it more time consuming? Maybe, but I just for me, I don't care. And so I guess the point is to really experiment in your life and and be curious, you know, try some stuff out. For me, the whoopstrap is worth it. The the app, weightlifting app, not worth it. And I'm just gonna kind of throw that one out. And so I think experimenting with different things, there's so many cool hacks these days. Like, I mean, just hundreds of different ways. The Opal app, the brick, there's this thing called the RO box, which is, I think, a physical box. And you know, truthfully, I used to make fun of some of this kind of stuff. Like, you know, oh my gosh, you have to buy a box and pay a membership and put your phone in the box. The the box just charges your phone and tracks how much time your phone is in the box. Like, how idiotic. Like, why can't we just put our phone away? But now I'm like, you know what? Like, use the tech to combat this addiction if you need to. That's fine, whatever it takes for you. Because maybe you have a contest with your husband who can, you know, have the most time in the RO box, which means you've got more time with each other and your kids, whatever. But the point is just to just to try and see what works for you and track how do you feel, you know, afterwards if you spend 10 minutes on Instagram and then do an app that cuts you off, or when you spend two hours mindlessly scrolling on Instagram, right? And and how do you feel afterwards?

SPEAKER_01: 23:48

Quick heads up, wellness warriors. I don't let just anyone into this mic time. The only sponsors I ever bring on are products that I plan to use, personally use, swear by, and that have legitimately moved the needle on my health and my families. No fluff, no fillers, no junk. So if you're serious about leveling up your energy, sleep, recovery skin, whatever your goal is, do not bounce early. Stay to the very end of this episode. I'm dropping some of my absolute ride or die brands and exactly how they've helped me feel unstoppable. These aren't random ads, they're tools I stake my name on. You'll thank me later. Keep it locked. We're going all the way to the finish line together. And you know, for people who are thinking, well, I might want to take this screen-free challenge, but I'm not quite sold yet. I'd like to leave you with one more thing. I have a lot of experience working alongside FEMA with disaster recovery. And I can tell you that disasters can happen to anyone, anywhere. In fact, in the United States, we had more than 150 natural disasters in places that don't normally see flooding and tornadoes. So disasters can happen at any time and it can take you offline in you know, just a snap moment. And if you are so connected to using technology for everything in your life and you don't have a way to contact people from memory or paper or to pay for things with cash, then in a disaster, you are going to suffer even more than the average person if you were so unprepared that you cannot envision living life without technology for even a short time. But a short time could be a week or could be a month or a year.

SPEAKER_00: 25:45

Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely true. I I fully agree. And as time goes on, I feel more strongly that to really create those methods in my life or being able to do things outside of technology. And yes, I know that the world is gonna be the world, and you know, we have to live in it, but it doesn't mean that you yourself in your own life need to give up complete autonomy to operating in this way. Thanks for bringing that example.

SPEAKER_01: 26:17

Yeah, I choose to have my foot in both worlds. I come from a tech background. I used to be a software designer. I actually love, love, love technology, but I'm concerned about its impact on my life. Before we cover the next topic in this episode, I want to introduce you to the adventure sports lifestyle with a story about an adventure that I've had. The adventure sports lifestyle and my deep connection to nature is essential to my good health. So here's the story. About seven years ago, I was on a whitewater kayaking and camping trip with more than 50 veterans and their family members, and I met a guy. His name is Matt. You may have heard me mention him throughout this podcast. And yesterday, Matt took me on a cross-country skiing trip. Uh it was a beautiful winter day here in the Midwestern Northwoods in the United States. Uh the trees were covered in snow. It looked like a winter wonderland. And as we skied throughout our forest and homestead, we went down our little funny slope. And at the end of it, we paused at a location where we usually launch our boats when we're going downriver and our kayaks. He took off his skis, got down on one knee in two feet of snow, and I didn't see this coming. I was completely confused by what was happening. And then he pulled out a beautiful box. And when he opened the box, there was a light shining down on this beautiful ring. And he said, Antoinette Lee, would you become Antoinette Beriffado? And I've always made fun of women that would just go blank and start to cry and scream and just kind of lose it when they're proposed to until it happened to me. So my mind went completely blank. And then when I realized, oh, I need to provide an answer, I screamed yes, and my voice echoed across the river, bounced off of an island and back at us so loud that I probably scared all the animals in the forest. And I got engaged yesterday. This emerald ring is significant to us because I'm Nigerian and Irish, and Matthew is Italian and Irish. We both love the outdoors. We met outdoors down by the river, and we're both veterans, and we love the color green. So having an emerald flanked by two diamonds, if you're listening to the podcast, having this green as a symbol of our devotion and our promise to each other means a lot to me. And I'm so excited to share this great news with you. So I hope this inspires you to get outside in an adventure and maybe find your Matt or Matilda and go off and live a beautiful life connected to nature together. Now back to the episode. So can you talk with us about some real world impacts on relationships and works when people reduce screen time? How does that work? What have you and your clients tried? And what are some of the successes and pitfalls we might experience?

SPEAKER_00: 29:51

One of what sometimes I run these different experiments for myself where I, for example, I just did I do the 24-hour screen free challenge a lot with my, you know, with the cohort of whoever's doing it. And so that's pretty easy these days. Not I would say easy, but it's it's very manageable. Over New Year's, I did 36 hours of no screens and also no other inputs of external ideas, so no reading books and no clocks. This was a little wild because I can spend most of the day reading a book and to just be with my own thoughts. And and and also I was interested because I was just my oven clock, the digital clock in my oven. I turned to it, I cannot even tell you, dozens and dozens of times throughout the day to determine if I should eat lunch, if it was time for bed. That was fascinating because I realized that I was dictating my actions completely to the clock. And it helped me pull back and say, well, I am I hungry for lunch? Am I sleepy? Is it time for bed? I suppose, in terms of our work and how it's impacting our work and the benefits, is really when you start to decrease your, I would say your reliance on this to combat boredom and to use it as distraction. You're tuning in more, and you're able to just come up with more creative ideas. You're able to be present and process your emotions. And this is one of the heartbreaking things about what technology is doing to young people is that they are less able to be in embodied experiences and read facial expressions, you know, all these tiny, tiny, nuanced things that we have evolved as a species to be able to read and understand in body language and, you know, all these things, it's just becoming lost to generations and it and it's heartbreaking. And they cannot process their own emotions because they are always reaching for a screen for distraction when there's a a tiny moment where this could possibly happen and it's wreaking havoc on the mental health of young people. And just quick aside, if you are a parent, please read the book The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haid. It is data-driven, it might scare you a lot, but it is an important critical read for parents. Back to our relationships. I don't think it will surprise anyone to hear that when there's a phone next to you and you're trying to connect with someone, you're you're just your attention is just pulled to the phone. There's a paper that was published that talks about it's called the brain drain, you know, that talks about how you are literally dumber if your phone is next to you, even face down, you know. And of course, it would stand a reason that if your phone, if there's a phone next to you and you're trying to connect with someone, you just cannot be as present because you're just thinking about the phone.

SPEAKER_01: 32:54

Oh my gosh, there's so much to unpack with what you just said. I'm the camp director of an on at a nonprofit. And in 2020 and 2021, so many children aged six to 16 showed up at camp and said, I don't know how to make friends because I don't know what people's faces are telling me. And I actually had to work one-on-one with a child. He was 11 and he wanted to go home because he felt like uh he wasn't making friends because he didn't understand people's body language and and facial expressions. But after five minutes of working with him, just making different facial expressions and then telling him what that meant, and then uh practicing it with him. What is my face telling you? What is my body language telling you? Uh he went off, made friends, and had a wonderful time at camp. But I think parents don't realize how detrimental it was to have our faces covered, to not be face to face with other human beings, in some cases for like two years. And you really need to have those conversations with your children because they are talking to other adults, like their camp counselors, that this is what they've been experiencing.

SPEAKER_00: 34:17

Yeah. I mean, COVID didn't do us any favors, right? In regards to our reliance on screens for connection, but you know, so that's unfortunate. But it's a different time now, right? And we're still, I think, kind of acting like it's COVID. And that's that's one of the heartbreaking things is that people utilize these platforms because they want to connect, right? They want to connect with other people. And of course, there's really cool ways that, you know, you can connect, like we're obviously on here, living far apart. How neat. That's awesome. But in terms of that replacing in-person connection, you know, it's it's very sad to see that because we need connection as humans. And there's there are so many people that are longing for connection and kind of like you're saying with the kids, losing the ability to form those connections in real life. You know, it's like it kind of feels so awkward now to like have a conversation in the grocery store when like I'm in my 40s. I remember, you know, just chit-chatting to people all over the place. It was just wasn't a big deal. And now it's like, ugh, it's like, you know, it's like awkward and kind of weird unless you live in a small town where that's kind of the norm. But one thing I've been practicing out in the world is just like my phone's away and just kind of chatting people up again, you know, and that's that's kind of a skill that you can rebuild, is just small talk and like sometimes it's gonna be weird and awkward. And sometimes you really might not agree with people. Like, there's it's obviously a little bit of a tense political situation in the US right now. But we are losing the ability to talk to people who are different from us, you know, just in in real time in real life, and just relate to people as human beings.

SPEAKER_01: 36:08

Yeah, it, you know, it is sort of, I guess, locational because when I lived in Colorado, people did not make small talk. They didn't say hello to their neighbors or talk to each other. And even before COVID, I I felt like that part of the country, the the mountain west, uh, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, et cetera, it felt like people were less friendly because I'm not from the South, but I spend a lot of time living in the South where there are no such thing as strangers. And then you get to a place where you're trying to make friends and be friendly. Uh, if it were not for the outdoor community, it would have been very difficult for me to make friends because people kind of keep to themselves a little bit more. Not that it's necessarily a good or bad thing, but it's just difficult to have real life relationships when people are reluctant to connect in real life. But now living in the Midwest, there are no strangers, people live in the woods like me. When we see a car pass by, we wave and that might turn into a 30-minute conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 37:22

And I love it. Oh, I love that too. Yeah, I often will reside in small towns because I just I love community and I recognize that it is different in different parts of the country. But one of the things I will say is that if you aren't lucky enough to live in a place that, you know, it's just the norm and people are eager to connect, and the, and that's that's kind of the culture, you know, it's still possible. And even in bigger cities, you can have, you know, smaller neighborhoods. And I would just encourage people to take a little ownership over their situation and be that person that's making the small talk, that's reaching out. I mean, right now, I think one of the saddest things about where we're at with the digital devices is that it's harder to tell when people are struggling because we're just behind screens. And of course, it's there's this very performative nature about showing up. And, you know, I know you and I are in a content creation space, and it's always a balance like to be inspiring and motivating and show up and also be real and all that stuff, right? But I guess the point is it's it's um, it's tough to tell when people are struggling. And this is why it's more important than ever to create relationships with people that are physically around you and talk to people face to face, get a sense of how they are on a general day in a given week, whatever, and and be tracking each other as much as you can. Obviously, we're busy, people have you know life stuff that they're dealing with. You can't always be keeping tabs on all your neighbors or all your all your friend group. But I just I just encourage people to keep reaching out to people, utilize the tools that we have, like your phone, to set up in-person meetings and and create the in-person connection, right? As much as you can. Or if you can't do that, because they, you know, it's they're far, whatever, then have a Zoom call, you know, or a phone call over just texting when you can. I mean, there's little things you can do, I think, to show up for each other.

SPEAKER_01: 39:34

In our next installment of this series on connection devices and cybersecurity, we're going to talk with cybersecurity expert Robert Siciliano about how we can safely implement what Kelsey just said, making connections online and then taking them into the real world. So don't let that be a barrier. We have all the answers for you. So social media, it creates This illusion of connection through this parasocial relationship. And how can we help listeners shift toward a genuine real life connection that truly matters?

SPEAKER_00: 40:11

I think there's space for both. And I don't want to suggest that none of the relationships within social media are important. I mean, I'm sure that you are a part of groups online. I have masterminds, I'm a part of, or I've never met these women. And we are sharing some of the, you know, deepest parts of ourselves with each other in the online space. And I would say that's a little different than social media, but we also support each other in the social media space. And there's lots of incredible things that could happen there. You know, kind of if you have a connection, you're trying to form in social media, take it beyond that. I don't know if you have any of these social media buddies where you basically just like each other's stuff, you comment, but you're, you know, but then there's there's not much more substance beyond that. And really, if you if there's someone you're interested in becoming closer to in that space, just try to tease it out of the social media, right? Just try to have a Zoom call with them. I have a really cool friend that, you know, we know each other from social media and we just schedule quarterly calls just to say like what's happening in your life, and you know, and and it's just, I think as much as you can take it out of that into the, into the as as much real world as you can. So, like I said, if it's not, if it's if you can't meet in person, do a Zoom meeting. If you can't do that, do a phone call, whatever. But I guess at the same time, understanding that weak ties in your life are also still very important. And weak ties, by that I mean people, there's all kinds of relationships in the world. So I have a post office box and I kind of love these people. You know, I've seen them three times a week at least for years. I I know very little about their lives, but I just feel like I just really appreciate seeing them all the time. And, you know, there's just so many different types of relationships in our lives, and I feel like we've really just let go of the the beautiful diversity of relationships we can have in favor of not consciously probably, you know, but just narrowing it down to just this screen and these types of relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 42:30

And before we close out, recap what some of the benefits are of having good boundaries online, getting to know people online, and then either using online resources like Zoom, for example, to create a deeper connection with the people that you've met online and then another group that you might meet in person. Can you just recap for us what we can do, how we can do it, how we can maintain boundaries, but also be open to meeting new people and forming deeper connections?

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

Well, I'll just note for people that if you are on this journey, you are dedicated to making a change. Like a lot of very important life changes, this may be hard at first. And I just want to say that because I don't want to lead people to believe that if it's hard, if it's challenging, it's not worth it. Because one of the key takeaways is this is your brain, this is your life, and it is so worth it to create some boundaries such that you are able to show up fully. Right. So you ask about some of the benefits. The benefits I have seen personally and that I have seen in the research are an ability to focus, an ability to be more productive in less time. If you have that feeling like you just can't get something done, you know, this is this this does help over time. This does help you to be able to focus in when you are doing things like putting your phone out of sight physically away from you, out of sight, and focusing on this on the work. In terms of relationships, working on having some of those awkward conversations, just sitting and talking with someone without a screen nearby, it might feel kind of funny and weird at first, and also a little energy intensive because we aren't really used to doing that as much these days. But the the things that can come out of that are so beautiful, in my opinion. Deepening our connections to each other, coming up with cool ideas, creative things, learning more about people past just what they're presenting to the world in a curated space. And also an ability to sit with boredom. I think this is so, so, so important for our brains, for resilience when I'm driving, just being able to drive and think and work through my own thoughts. And I think this is a real skill that we are losing is just the ability to be quiet with our own thoughts and help process our emotions. And obviously, these things might be a little tougher to track in terms of the metrics of like, am I processing my emotions better? But one thing we didn't talk about is sleep. How much improved your sleep will be if you do try to set those boundaries of leading up to bedtime off-screens. We've there's a ton of research around that. And sleep, then improving your mental health, your ability to show up. I mean, all of these things are interrelated, of course.

SPEAKER_01: 45:49

Well, we have a little time. Can we talk about the importance of sleep and how technology can positively or negatively, because there are some benefits to being able to track your sleep if you feel like you're sleeping eight hours but not waking up feeling restored, but then also using your device at screen time can be detrimental. So let's talk about sleep for a moment before we sign off.

SPEAKER_00: 46:16

Sure. Yeah. I I love the topic of sleep right now. And personally, I I used to think I was an insomniac. Like I just thought for the rest of my life I'm just an insomniac is almost like a badge of honor. Now I'm really into sleep. So if I sleep over eight hours, it's like a victory, you know. I'm like, woo, celebrate time because I'm now able to not always, I usually have to get up maybe once in the night or twice, but almost always I can sleep through the night. And I don't sleep in anymore because I go to bed early enough. But to the point we've made a couple of times now, I set those boundaries with the screens in order to start winding down early enough so that I can go to bed early and sleep through the night and then, oh wow, get up early and start the day. And this is, I mean, it's changed my life. It's changed my life. I'd love to hear about it. Sounds like you're into this idea too. I'd love to hear about your sleep protocol.

SPEAKER_01: 47:22

I used, I used to, especially in tech, I think I got in the habit of not sleeping and then also struggling with anxiety and depression from post-traumatic stress during my time in the military. And I think maybe it became sort of a habit of only sleeping four hours a night. And then I started to sleep six hours a night and thought, oh, this is great. Now, what I have learned now that I'm physically, emotionally, and healthy in every way, even though I have challenges I have to manage, I'm sleeping eight to ten hours a night, and not because I feel like I need to sleep in, I'm sleeping that amount of time because that's what my brain is telling me it needs. And when I give it at least eight hours or even 10 hours most nights, I wake up the next day and instead of only being able to have one meeting, I can have three or four. And so that's huge for a traumatic brain injury survivor. So sleep is so, so important.

unknown: 48:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 48:30

I love that. I love that. Oh, up to 10 hours. If I blog 10 hours, we bouncing around all day, probably literally, because I'd feel amazing, you know? Yeah, I know it's it's not, it's one quick aside, it's so funny because as I as I get off of screens, I don't have a TV. And so, but I'll watch some stuff sometimes on my laptop, you know. There's a lot of of really cool things out there, right? People have created. So sometimes I do. But it's funny when I started to let go of that and just go to bed early, cultural pressure to like watch TV, as if it's like very uncool to just go to bed. And I realized that like I don't love having conversations about TV shows. So I don't feel like I'm really missing out on something there. But for whatever reason, I felt like very lame to just start, yeah, shutting down and not shutting down all the screens and not watching anything and just like no thanks, you know, just being removed from it and going to bed. And it's interesting to have unpacked that a little bit in my life. Like, why? Whoa, like, you know, how is this benefiting me personally? I'm basically just watching other people have cool adventures in their lives, having experiences, having relationships instead of doing it myself, instead of going to bed, getting up, maybe going out of the world and having a cool experience or a relationship, you know, with just it's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 50:01

You know, I completely understand because I we have one television in the home and it's definitely not in the bedroom. And I often don't know what's happening in the world, whether it's the news or popular culture or what the cool new thing is. And really that is so liberating because it makes you feel okay about not caring about things that don't really impact your day-to-day life that much. And I now wear it as a badge of honor when I say, I don't know who those people are that you're talking about from that movie or show or whatever. And please don't explain it to me because I won't remember anyway. I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00: 50:51

It's it's interesting, you know. You always want to, I I try to make sure I ease in sometimes because I feel like I can be a little intense with you know people when they're not used to conversing like this, but they'll start talking about this stuff on social media or a show. And I'm like, okay, I literally could care less, right? Like, you know, couldn't care. I just don't, I just don't want to talk about this stuff. What I want to hear about is how are you doing? What's going on? Like, what's you know, the heaviest on your heart right now? What do you think about your life? How's your relationship with your partner? Whatever, you know, and it's so much easier, I think, for people to just talk about these other things, like TV shows and stuff. So I really appreciate you saying that because I also sometimes I feel like a little FOMO, like I am missing out on something really cool. And then I think about the type of conversations I want to be having and the ways I want to show up, and they have nothing to do with TV.

SPEAKER_01: 51:49

What I find that is the people who are the most interesting are people just like Kelsey. They're just like you, Kelsey. They don't make what's happening in the world of entertainment or politics or pop culture, they're everything. And so they have so many more interesting layers to talk about. They're more in touch with their feelings, we have deeper connection, and they actually know how to make conversation. I don't know if you are aware of this, but so many people under the age of 50 don't know how to make conversation, don't know basic table manners like which glass to use in a corporate setting, that corporations are paying to send them to what I did was debutante school from age 15 to 16. I spent a year learning how to be a lady, but also learning, you know, what social norms are in Western civilization and which glass is mine on a table full of many glasses, right? And that has to be taught because people are not learning it at home. And then they go into the corporate world, for example, and they're completely unable to do basic things like conversation and social skills and table manners.

SPEAKER_00: 53:13

I'm not surprised to hear that, but it does hurt my heart a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 53:19

So, Kelsey, what do you want to leave listeners with at this time? What more can you tell them?

SPEAKER_00: 53:25

Yeah. Well, first, we didn't talk too much about this, but I just wanted to make sure people know to not have any guilt or shame around this stuff. You know, these platforms are created by very smart people with a lot of money and they're made to be addictive. And so if you find yourself on, let's say, Instagram, TikTok against your will, it feels like almost, you know, that's really it working the way that they wanted it to. And it's very hard sometimes to get off of these platforms. So I just want to give you that before we wrap up that please don't feel any shame or guilt around this. It is tough. Our society is just completely saturated with it. It's it's very hard to separate yourself. So there's that. And then, you know, again, I'll just point out that this is this is almost like staying fit, addressing your mental health. This is for the rest of your life. This is for the long term, right? So we talked about some fun, like screen-free Sunday challenges that you do once in a while, but it's really like any habit, it's the day to day that you need to be addressing. How you spend your day is how you spend your life. And so if on a given day you are falling into those scrolly traps, you know, you're watching Netflix and scrolling and you got your smartwatch blinging at you and you have your iPad open, there's there's just no room for what I consider the real and important stuff in life. And I know it's a hard stance, but I stand behind it because in my own life, as I practice these boundaries and I try to get out there and connect with people in real life, it has just been so rewarding and it is worth it for your beautiful life and your beautiful brain.

SPEAKER_01: 55:20

Oh, I love that so much. This has been so insightful, Kelsey. Thanks for making time with us. How can listeners connect with you and your work?

SPEAKER_00: 55:29

Sure. You can find me at Kelseylgreen.com, and my handle is the same on Instagram, Kelsey L like Lemur uh green, and I'm also on LinkedIn. So find me there and I'll be running one or two screen free challenges per month. And I'd love to see you in there.

SPEAKER_01: 55:47

That's it for this time, friends. I hope you'll take advantage of the screen free challenge and write down how you feel, how hard it was, keep some notes around it. I think it'll benefit your life. All right, wellness warriors. This is Antoinette Lee, your ride or die host, signing off for now, but I'm not letting you disappear on me. Every Wednesday at 10 a.m. Central, I'm pouring virtual coffee in the cabin on X Spaces, formerly Twitter, and I'm saving a seat just for you. We laugh, we argue, we unpack the latest episode, and we tackle whatever fire is burning in your world right now. No gatekeeping, no fake niceness, just real talk with real people wanting to connect and who are done being dismissed by the sick care system. Join us at 10 a.m. Central, 8 Pacific, 9 Mountain, 11 Eastern. The X Base link drops every Tuesday, so turn on notifications for NNBL blog right now so you never miss it. Raise your hand to jump on the mic, listen in the shadows, or just sip coffee with us. Every single option is welcome. I can't wait to hear your voice in the cabin. See you Wednesday wellness warriors. Don't keep me waiting. Magnesium, an unsung hero, fuels over 300 bodily reactions from heart health to stress relief. Magnesium expert Natalie Girado, founder of Rooted In, found freedom from anxiety, insomnia, and pain through topical magnesium. It transformed my life, she says, inspiring her mission to share this mineral's power. Cardiologist Dr. Jack Wolfson calls magnesium essential for heart health, helping regulate rhythm, blood sugar, and reduce inflammation. Up to 80% of people may be deficient facing issues like depression, migraines, insomnia, or muscle crap. For women over 40, magnesium eases menopause symptoms, boosts energy, and supports bones. Choosing the correct type of magnesium matters. Real stories, Natalie's in mind, highlight its impact. After interviewing magnesium expert Natalie Girato, I became a customer. I was already a magnesium fan, having been told by two cardiologists to take magnesium for a minor heart arrhythmia. Natalie explains it best in the Magnesium the Mineral Transforming Lives episode of New Normal Big Life Podcast. Fast forward after the interview, I bought the Rooted Inn bundle for sleep, tranquility, and pain relief. As a spine injury survivor with several other health challenges, I'm in constant pain. However, I don't take any pain medication. Rooted in is now one more source that nature provided to give our bodies what it needs when it needs it. You can find magnesium in natural bodies of water like lakes and rivers, and in soil. But modern farming practices have stripped magnesium out of the soil and our food. That's why today, Rooted Inn's rest, relief, and tranquility are part of our afternoon and nightly sleep routine. My guide who did two towards taking indoors in a rock with the Marines now has no trouble falling asleep. I no longer have to take melatonin before bedtime to fall asleep. So after I became a customer and saw how well these products work, I applied to become an affiliate. I've been sharing the secrets of Rooted In with friends and family from age 38 to 68, and everyone has gotten amazing results within minutes of applying the cream. Do something naturally good for yourself. Get Rooted In. Click my affiliate link in the episode description to shop now. When you're planning an adventure camping, rafting, RV, or mountaineering, you'll need quality food with sufficient vitamins, minerals, and nutrients to fuel your adventure. My partner Ready Hour is here to help you ahead of time. Ready Hour has a long history of providing calorie rich, reliable, and delicious nourishment for life's unexpected situations and adventures. They're part of a family of companies that have served millions of people like you for decades. My family and I use Ready Hour products for camping, mountaineering, and disaster preparedness for five years now. They're not just reliable, they're also your affordable. Option too. Long-term storable food shouldn't break the bank. That's why they have great sales and payment options for you. It's your bridge to safety and survival when you're on an adventure. So make your next decision your smartest decision. Be ready for adventure tomorrow today. Trust Ready Hour. Ready to shop? Use my affiliate link in the show description. The information in this podcast is not medical advice and should not be treated as such.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:26

Always consult your physician or healthcare professional before pursuing any health related procedure or activity.